Author Topic: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?  (Read 3331 times)

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phatzoid

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How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« on: February 02, 2005, 12:49:02 am »
Looking at the guys here who know their stuff, and are working hard to make sneaky exploits for games, I have to ask...

How much would it cost to turn this on its head? I mean what would TKC expect in terms of finance to instead of developing cheats to develop anti-cheats?

I know that seems to run against the grain here, considering this site is about cheating, but its clear to me that some people here have got the smarts to make a better protection system than the guys who are providing it now...

I mean if someone was going to employ you to do the reverse how much would it cost? ?10, ?100, ?1000, ?10000 or more? Maybe some of you guys could earn a living from your skills... which has to be more rewarding than just getting one over on the developers?

M. O.

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How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2005, 01:20:43 am »
Well, this is just our hobby. It's hard to put a price on it.
It's also two different tasks to create cheats and battle them. If you want to battle cheats then you have to be the developer yourself. It's a different feeling to create cheats. You've got freedom to do "anything" you want.

It's a choice between security and performance.

TKC is going to take a great step forward from creating cheats to developing games this and next year.
Heckling is an art, and game hacking a science.

phatzoid

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How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2005, 01:50:06 pm »
Well im glad to hear that :D

As a programmer and developer myself I have been fasinated by these types of communities. Historically many of the best programmers, working for the likes of Microsoft and Symantec, have come from a similiar background. Those programmers that have demonstrated exploits, backdoors and other holes in software have often been head-hunted by the makers of the very software they exploit.

When we look at the games industry, specifically that of exploit creation, I am amazed that they do not seem to follow this ethos. Considering that many of these companies have pretty deep pockets and yet they do not put a financial reward on the work you guys do. Afterall if you can exploit the software, then I am sure you can plug up those holes just as well.

I agree that people should have the freedom to choose how they want to play, cheating or otherwise, but that is not really my interest. It's clear that here you have some very talented individuals and it would be interesting to see how you guys would do things should the roles be reveresed. :?:

Looking at the likes of Hradba it seems to me that it falls short of being an effective prevention system, with so few updates compared to some other systems. Again most prevention systems such as hradba work after the event, someone developes an exploit, and then it gets fixed. Yet if people like yourselves where doing this I think it would be a pro-active approach instead of retro-active.

I hope you guys DO make a title and show some of these developers what can be done. I also wonder if developing an anti-cheat based on what you have learned, would be financially rewarding.

I wish you guys the best of luck with your future projects and I will of course be watching this space with great interest. :wink:

[TKC]thejoker

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How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2005, 06:22:40 pm »
?1000 a month would do me for making anti-cheat programs  8)

phatzoid

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How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« Reply #4 on: February 02, 2005, 06:29:28 pm »
Well that seems pretty low. Considering most guys who do this for a living are on much bigger salaries.

The real question was aimed at the group as a whole. I mean to turn the top programmers, (the heart of TKC) into a proper company with targets and budgets and so forth.

Not that im offering to pay you guys :lol:, but simply to look at the feasability of such a move. :?:

More to the point, is this even something TKC would do. I appreciate the ethos here is towards freedom, and supporting those that agree with that philosphy, but clearly there are some bright peeps here who could probably do this for a living.

Additionally its worth mentioning that in this scenario TKC would become a anti-cheat group instead. So we are talking about the entire team. I would think that a reasonable annual figure would be somewhere in the region of $60k a year, employing 4-8 people full time....

ZOldDude

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How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« Reply #5 on: February 02, 2005, 10:37:03 pm »
UK pepole are so into "fair" play........

Anyhow 60K per year is a bullsh!t LOW number....and after they do the job they get fired.

That would leave the company with a product that it could gain income from untill hell froze over....on a per copy rate.....reaching 100's of millions each decade.




*While we crash and burn, small, low tech, agrarian societies such as the Hmong in the mountains of Laos will continue on without so much as blinking an eye.*

phatzoid

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How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« Reply #6 on: February 02, 2005, 10:43:21 pm »
First of all it would be a pretty lame anti-cheat if after it was made the progammers all got fired. The point of an anti-cheat company is much like a cheat community, in that they continue to release new updates, so I don't think you would make a lot of doe that way.

As for the ?60k figure, I just pulled that out of the air, and if you check the early posts, I am asking how much? Annual budget would the team aim for to continue to support and develop an anti-cheat system.

This is of course Hyperthetical :wink:

ZOldDude

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How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2005, 11:06:33 pm »
Well if a company was to make an honest offer I would bring it up with the rest of the staff.

I have a firm idea on which members have good programming skills and/or already work in the industry at some lvl.

The big issue (for honest offer) is that people are in differant countrys and contract laws differ.

*While we crash and burn, small, low tech, agrarian societies such as the Hmong in the mountains of Laos will continue on without so much as blinking an eye.*

phatzoid

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How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« Reply #8 on: February 02, 2005, 11:09:56 pm »
Yeah a fiar comment, very difficult to organise a pay structure that works globally. Like I say I am simply curious as IMHO some of the current providers of anti-cheat systems leave a lot to be desired.

Thanks for the frank answers.

ZOldDude

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How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« Reply #9 on: February 02, 2005, 11:33:01 pm »
Well as far as HradBa....there are still walhacks for #206 and also two ways to turn it off yet still make the server think it is engaged.

As for the stand alone wallhack I am just waiting for the programmer to give his permission to make it public along with the perm-ban fix.

*While we crash and burn, small, low tech, agrarian societies such as the Hmong in the mountains of Laos will continue on without so much as blinking an eye.*

M. O.

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How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2005, 12:01:59 am »
It's a very good idea phatzoid, there indeed is a future in anti-cheat business. We'll see what we do with the new game anti-cheatwise, but the best way to combat cheats is to make it a part of the game ;)

Anyway it's too early to decide now, we'll see what happens.
Heckling is an art, and game hacking a science.

phatzoid

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How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2005, 04:06:32 pm »
Well the best of luck with it guys...

I will check back from time to time to see how you guys are getting along. Very interesting & nice talking to you all :D

ZOldDude

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How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2005, 09:39:20 pm »
You said you were a "programmer and developer".....what company?

*While we crash and burn, small, low tech, agrarian societies such as the Hmong in the mountains of Laos will continue on without so much as blinking an eye.*

phatzoid

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How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2005, 10:15:08 pm »
Well I run a small games development house in UK, not so exciting as we develop arcade games for young children, usually under the age of 5. We use a third part engine that we have licensed and continue to develop.

My background in programming, C & C++ right through to net based stuff like PHP, (although that is more of a hobby)

FYI: Our engine has DX9 support, including the full set of pixel shaders and stencil shadowing, much like Doom3, however we don't use it for anything so exciting. (Not yet anyway :lol: )

This is really what enspired my questions, bcz should at some stage my company decide to move into the commercial 3D games market, we would need to provide Anti-Cheat, and to license something like Punk-Buster is out of our reach.

Im sure you will understand why I don't post my companies URL and name here as its too public. Feel free to PM me...

ZOldDude

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How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2005, 06:59:09 am »
Well you can advert your company here anytime you want.....we write the TOS as we see fit.

I have never had to buy a lic. for any AC program ....but thought it was based on so many cents (or fraction of) per copy and should be less than what the game devs get per copy.

Punk Buster is way easyer to cheat than HradBa as they attact the same problem but in differant ways.

In the end run any AC could just be dissabled and a script used to intercept the call from server and give fake report back from client.

After all people still manage to bring about hell on government websites and even have lame contests to see who can do the most each week.

The only thing foolproff is......nothing.

Also except for HradBa all the other AC programs from United Admin are free.

The best AC would be tight programing of a game BEFOR release.....close the holes.

One guy in Italy who wrote part of the Windows XP code (probibly the part that was not buggy) trys to find "a problem with a program every day" just to keep his mind sharp.
His site lists untold issues and proof of concept programs that crash or allow "fake playes" to enter almost every game played on the internet or enter passworded game servers and/or allow a person to make himself an addmin.

GameSpy servers still have bugs that allow people to remove servers from the list years after the first report of the flaw!

*While we crash and burn, small, low tech, agrarian societies such as the Hmong in the mountains of Laos will continue on without so much as blinking an eye.*