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Messages - phatzoid

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Off Topic / How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« on: February 09, 2005, 12:48:18 am »
There is obviously somthing to be learned here.

The obvious question is why are FPS makers not taking the same route? Is this because for some reason its harder to implement? I presume that MMORPG's are not sharing packets as often as FPS, bcz there is less need to be synchronised with these types of games, maybe there is more room for the encryted packets.

As mentioned above it is always better to tie up these holes before final publication, but its certainly an interesting point.

Other things like CD-Key ban deterents, like I hear HL2 uses, (although thats speculation at the moment, having not played it myself). However these CD-Keys seem pretty easy to aquire so loosing your CD-Key bcz of being an exploiter may not be much of a deterent...

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Off Topic / How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« on: February 05, 2005, 09:10:54 pm »
Obviously holes in external things, such as DirectX, can still lead to exploits but considering these games usually have a screen shot function, I am surprised that a simple random screen capture system is not implemented. I mean if a server was gathering random screen shots from all players this would create a reasonable deterent against those D3D holes... ok that still leaves a gap for non-visiual aids like aimbots and speed hacks etc, but its such a simple step....

When you start looking at this from the other end of the spectrum its easy to see that blocking every hole is almost impossible, but there are things that could be done...often very simple....IMHO

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Off Topic / How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« on: February 05, 2005, 09:04:59 pm »
especially if the encrytion key could be updated, if this was done weekly, a simple enough automation, this would make creation of exploits a pointless task. Something that I have never understood is why has this not been implemented? My only guess is the response time...

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Off Topic / How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« on: February 05, 2005, 08:58:19 pm »
That would be my thinking also. I guess the trick is to make the encrytion and decryption mothod fast enough that it would not effect server response times etc...

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Off Topic / How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« on: February 04, 2005, 09:13:28 pm »
Well our engine lisence cost just under $10k which gives us the ability to develop new titles with it which have to be registered with our engine provider for their records.

There are other costs dependant on the target market, which for Arcade only titles is considerably less compared to the PC game market, (one of the reasons we have not moved into this market yet).

Im not particularly interested in current cheats for current games per say, but I am interested in the whole process. I can not agree with you more, regarding finding the holes before shipping a title, instead of expecting an AC to plug them all up, which is more forgivable for small firms like pterodon, but when companies like EA fail to do this I am frankly appalled. As well as the fact that huge organisations, like government bodies, are as open to these exploits as the games industry, although this poses more of a problem than some guy running around in your game with some super ability.

To aquire AC's as you say, may well be free, certainly to the public but in most cases some level of funding must come from the developers, outsourcing this to an established firm would seem the direction that most take...

As I mention my own programming experience is pretty wide, but when it comes to this side, exploiting flaws, I must say I have limited knowledge outside of the average persons understanding. However should we find ourselves in a position where this is a factor we need to understand I suspect we would follow the common path of outsourcing to someone who does. Obviously establishing a good level of communication between the parties would be our first priority, to look at what should be tied up before handing a project over to the AC contractor. I suspect this is the first place many developers stubble over and failing here can result to more exploitable 'holes', thus creating more exploits.

I think other community related problems arrise when developers are tight lipped about these flaws which breeds discord within the titles developing community, legit players or exploit players. Both communities are as valid as each other and IMHO a more open approach to both would improve them no-end.

I don't pretend to share the ethos of the exploit community but that is not to say that I don't understand it. This kind of grey area can get a little murky with some players sitting on the fence... but all the same these communities are what keep your title in circlation... anyway I digress... :roll:  :?

Maybe if developers actually worked along side communities like TKC they could learn from each other, and in turn create an environment where players from either camp can decide where they want to play, how they want to play etc...

There are some games as you know that run international leagues, plagued with reports of cheating or other types of exploit. Yet if a better relationship with the exploit community had been developed, places like TKC could have helped provide a exploit free environment, or at least a closer to legit one. I remember years ago playing Diablo, from Blizzard, and I remember that their own server list had 2 zones, one for exploiters and one for legit (although not perfect if I recall), but at least they were working towards this goal. Yet the current consensus from developers seems to be one of denial, or at least to turn a blind eye until some new AC update can be released.... These are just conclusions based on ovservations I have made over the last 8 years as a small time games developer, and a long time as a game player. :D

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Off Topic / How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« on: February 03, 2005, 10:15:08 pm »
Well I run a small games development house in UK, not so exciting as we develop arcade games for young children, usually under the age of 5. We use a third part engine that we have licensed and continue to develop.

My background in programming, C & C++ right through to net based stuff like PHP, (although that is more of a hobby)

FYI: Our engine has DX9 support, including the full set of pixel shaders and stencil shadowing, much like Doom3, however we don't use it for anything so exciting. (Not yet anyway :lol: )

This is really what enspired my questions, bcz should at some stage my company decide to move into the commercial 3D games market, we would need to provide Anti-Cheat, and to license something like Punk-Buster is out of our reach.

Im sure you will understand why I don't post my companies URL and name here as its too public. Feel free to PM me...

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Off Topic / How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« on: February 03, 2005, 04:06:32 pm »
Well the best of luck with it guys...

I will check back from time to time to see how you guys are getting along. Very interesting & nice talking to you all :D

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Off Topic / How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« on: February 02, 2005, 11:09:56 pm »
Yeah a fiar comment, very difficult to organise a pay structure that works globally. Like I say I am simply curious as IMHO some of the current providers of anti-cheat systems leave a lot to be desired.

Thanks for the frank answers.

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Off Topic / How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« on: February 02, 2005, 10:43:21 pm »
First of all it would be a pretty lame anti-cheat if after it was made the progammers all got fired. The point of an anti-cheat company is much like a cheat community, in that they continue to release new updates, so I don't think you would make a lot of doe that way.

As for the ?60k figure, I just pulled that out of the air, and if you check the early posts, I am asking how much? Annual budget would the team aim for to continue to support and develop an anti-cheat system.

This is of course Hyperthetical :wink:

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Off Topic / How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« on: February 02, 2005, 06:29:28 pm »
Well that seems pretty low. Considering most guys who do this for a living are on much bigger salaries.

The real question was aimed at the group as a whole. I mean to turn the top programmers, (the heart of TKC) into a proper company with targets and budgets and so forth.

Not that im offering to pay you guys :lol:, but simply to look at the feasability of such a move. :?:

More to the point, is this even something TKC would do. I appreciate the ethos here is towards freedom, and supporting those that agree with that philosphy, but clearly there are some bright peeps here who could probably do this for a living.

Additionally its worth mentioning that in this scenario TKC would become a anti-cheat group instead. So we are talking about the entire team. I would think that a reasonable annual figure would be somewhere in the region of $60k a year, employing 4-8 people full time....

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Off Topic / How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« on: February 02, 2005, 01:50:06 pm »
Well im glad to hear that :D

As a programmer and developer myself I have been fasinated by these types of communities. Historically many of the best programmers, working for the likes of Microsoft and Symantec, have come from a similiar background. Those programmers that have demonstrated exploits, backdoors and other holes in software have often been head-hunted by the makers of the very software they exploit.

When we look at the games industry, specifically that of exploit creation, I am amazed that they do not seem to follow this ethos. Considering that many of these companies have pretty deep pockets and yet they do not put a financial reward on the work you guys do. Afterall if you can exploit the software, then I am sure you can plug up those holes just as well.

I agree that people should have the freedom to choose how they want to play, cheating or otherwise, but that is not really my interest. It's clear that here you have some very talented individuals and it would be interesting to see how you guys would do things should the roles be reveresed. :?:

Looking at the likes of Hradba it seems to me that it falls short of being an effective prevention system, with so few updates compared to some other systems. Again most prevention systems such as hradba work after the event, someone developes an exploit, and then it gets fixed. Yet if people like yourselves where doing this I think it would be a pro-active approach instead of retro-active.

I hope you guys DO make a title and show some of these developers what can be done. I also wonder if developing an anti-cheat based on what you have learned, would be financially rewarding.

I wish you guys the best of luck with your future projects and I will of course be watching this space with great interest. :wink:

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Off Topic / How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
« on: February 02, 2005, 12:49:02 am »
Looking at the guys here who know their stuff, and are working hard to make sneaky exploits for games, I have to ask...

How much would it cost to turn this on its head? I mean what would TKC expect in terms of finance to instead of developing cheats to develop anti-cheats?

I know that seems to run against the grain here, considering this site is about cheating, but its clear to me that some people here have got the smarts to make a better protection system than the guys who are providing it now...

I mean if someone was going to employ you to do the reverse how much would it cost? ?10, ?100, ?1000, ?10000 or more? Maybe some of you guys could earn a living from your skills... which has to be more rewarding than just getting one over on the developers?

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