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Messages - Kallic

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1
General Modding & Programming / Other Games / Re: "Invalid key"
« on: September 14, 2006, 01:45:57 am »
Hmm, prolly not a bad idea actually, lol. Never thought of that.

Anyway, thanks, yeah, I'll look into it.

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General Modding & Programming / Other Games / "Invalid key"
« on: September 13, 2006, 03:48:59 am »
So, I started off with a pirated version of the game since it doesn't come out in the U.S. until the 15th.. And after mounting it with Daemon Tools and all that stuff, I could play it just fine (online too) and everything worked fine up until about a week ago, maybe less.

Now when I try to get onto a server online through the full pirated version, the "Invalid key" window pops up so I can't get in.

And, I assumed since you guys are able to write cheats that put you underground and all kinds of crazy shit, you probably have a program that can get around the new key problem..   So, do you?  :lol:

Or do you know how I can get around it to be able to play the full game online again with the pirated version by chance?



EDIT::   Well, reading in the other posts about the torrent and everything, it looks no one's found a way around it? =\   I wouldn't have made this but I didn't see that thread first. But then again this focuses more on the key than the torrent, so I guess it's legit enough, lol.

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General Modding & Programming / Other Games / Re: Sooo EZ!
« on: September 13, 2006, 03:33:08 am »
Well, then, I change my words.

I'll cheat only to kill cheaters =P.  I wont even fire a shot at someone else who's not cheating, while I'm cheating.  Then after the cheater is dead, I'll turn them off and play normally lol.

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General Modding & Programming / Other Games / Re: Sooo EZ!
« on: September 06, 2006, 04:10:02 pm »
Well, I'm sure people'll make an aimbot for the heart now that I mentioned it yeah, lol.. But, they'd make one for the head anyway or cheat some other way, so it really makes no difference to me, lol.  At least normal players will know.

I'm prolly gonna test it with DirtySanchez tomorrow.

So aside from hyperspeed, godmode (perma or temporary) how would you avoid getting TK'd at the beginning of a game if the other guy pulls fast enough?

Idk what to do anymore really. I'm assuming it's going to get to a point where I'm going to have to look everywhere I can for cheats to use just to even the playing field when a cheater enters? lol.  Is there a way I can turn the cheats on and off at will during a round? So that after the TK/cheater is dead I can turn it off and play the rest of the round normal?

Or wont you tell me since, well, you're cheaters and I'm anti-cheater? lol

Side note, I saw Laterius today actually not cheating for once. At least I know he's got a competitive bone somewhere in his body now =P.

As far as the debates go, they're pretty much just at a standstill of "Yup." or "I see your point but I disagree." now, so, no point in dragging it on.

EDIT::   Today DirtySanchez and I were on opposite teams, and he came up behind me and put 5 rounds in me (took me 1hp actually), then I turned around and clicked both buttons while dual wielding pistols.. Both shots hit, but my second shot hit for 105 and he instantly dropped dead.. And I was aiming at his chest and pulled out of reaction, so my assumption is I hit him there. (Unless in the head of the moment he somehow found a way to get his head in the way but it didn't look like it)..   So, again I assume that there's probably a hitbox at the heart.

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General Modding & Programming / Other Games / Re: Sooo EZ!
« on: September 06, 2006, 12:41:27 pm »
But jumping around like a kangaroo and running fast WHILE killing people, is cheating.

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General Modding & Programming / Other Games / Re: Sooo EZ!
« on: September 06, 2006, 07:46:56 am »
BTW off-topic, I'm just curious and thought maybe you'd know..  Is there a hitbox on the heart in COJ or something?  Something seperate from the normal "body" hitbox?

I notice with a rifle sometimes I score a 1-shot  105 damage kill from a shot that didn't hit their head.  And I notice I tend to do 200-something all the way up to 325 for shooting someone in the head.  So that would suggest to me that those damages come from 2 different things?  Also is there like a random dice-roll behind the game when you hit certain parts or something? Like if you shoot someone in the abdomen does it have a chance of hitting them anywhere from 38-64 damage or something?  Or are there just more hitboxes than I'm aware of? It's kinda confusing =P.

Then I noticed on Old's  Cheat Of Juarez picture that the aimbot was over the heart, lol.

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General Modding & Programming / Other Games / Re: Sooo EZ!
« on: September 06, 2006, 07:43:33 am »
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It's not that we in TKC have problems with the regular gamers, it's the other way around.

Well, yeah, when your style directly impedes on someone else's, of course they're going to have a problem with you, lol.  Sorry to use another WWII example but it's one I easily work with since I'm into the era, lol.. But, if Germany goes and invades another country, does it mean they disrespect that country?  No, not necissarily, you're right. But when you march into Austria and say, "I respect you guys.. But, I'm going to take your country because it benefits me. Sucks for you. Get over it.",  of course Austrians are going to get pissed off and have a problem with Germans, lol.  :P

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But comparing the theft of a car with a game is a bit harsh to be.
 Agreed. But, it's the same frame of mind. I use that example because it's shocking when you look at it and see the similarities in the reasoning behind the act.  It's meant to be kinda harsh, =P.

About the aiming thing, I was talking about Laterius, lol. I think it was before you got there.

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I've been acused of being a cheater in many server and many games even when I didn't cheat (Yes, I play without cheats too). People started to TK me just for the simple fact that my score was much better. Now that's not right imho. If people start playing as a jugde and decide what's best for their game then that gives me the right to do the same.

Well, yeah, if you play a straight up game (not cheating) using the same name you use to cheat, of course you're gonna get TK'd, because your name has a horrible stigma and people remember what you do.   If I own a gas-station and 3 crips walk in dressed the same and rob me every day.. The next day they come in, I'm going to automatically assume they're there to rob me, since, that's what they've been doing.

I mean you're in a cheating guild, wearing a tag notorious for cheating. You have to know people are gonna retaliate the minute they see you.

If you're using a different name, and have a high score, and get TK'd just because people *think* you're cheating, then no, that's not right at all.  However in that situation you can prove them wrong by saying, "If you think I'm cheating, then spectate me when you die and you'll see that I'm not".

I don't actually kill cheaters or TK's on site the minute I log in personally. I will DEFINATELY watch them very closely to see if they're cheating or TKing though. If they're playing straight up, cool, I leave em alone.  It's not until I see them TKing or cheating that I start TKing them.

As far as the judging thing goes.. IMO they have a right to take action against you when what you do directly impedes on them.  I have no problem with people having different play styles as long as those styles are followed and allowed by the game the way it was originally meant to be played.  For example, I have no problem with a camper. That's a different playstyle than me usually, and it's frustrating to get camped sometimes.. But, it was done within the game's design/rules/confine/wahtever you wanna call it, lol.   Camping is only frustrating to people who are impatient. If a person charges headstrong into an alley before checking his surroundings, and gets shot by a man peaking out from a box, that's his own fault.   So really, campers don't IMPEDE on anyone else's style, it's simply a style that counters a headstrong-charger-type's style. Since most people are charger-types, most people are frustrated by campers. However, if they'd just slow down and check their surroundings, they could catch a camper offguard and kill him, or avoid getting hit by him all-together.  So in other words, a camper and a charger have 2 different playstyles, and when a charger walks into a camper's spot, the camper usually has the advantage. Some people see this as unfair. Though, it's not, because the charger can change his course of action on a whim, to make the playing field even again. He can stop being a headstrong charger, and start being a careful observer. This way he can peak around a corner and try to spot a camper before the camper can shoot him. Then he can adjust and try to catch the camper off-guard.  Or the camper might see that he's been spotted and move. This evens the playing field back out again, within game mechanics too.

With a cheater however, it directly impedes the other play styles, since those people have no way to defend themselves from death, or to fairly counter a cheater. There's nothing they can do, no way they can adjust what they do to better fit the situation to make things an even playing-field again.

So really, cheating isn't a "playstyle"  imo.. It's just, cheating. To me a playstyle is a way of playing a certain way inside the game's mechanics.  It might give you an advantage over someone else that has an opposing playstyle, however, there's always a different kind of playstyle that counters yours and gives the other person the advantage over you temporarily.  The difference between a playstyle and a cheat is that with a playstyle, you can always switch things up to make the playing field even again.   With cheating there is no way to even it out.  So, it's not really a "playstyle".. It's just a cheat.

8
Off Topic / Re: My Arguments/Points About Things In Your FAQ
« on: September 05, 2006, 08:18:51 pm »
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That is wrong, but again what has it to do with games?

It has nothing to do with the game physically. It has everything to do with the mentality behind the philosphies. To show they're the same, or both made in the same frame of mind. It's an example showing the 2 things being based off the same principal. You're not dumb, you know what I meant =P

Same thing with the nazi example, LoL.

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So you're saying you want your own traditional food when you go to countries that can't offer anything else than their own food?

No, you must've read that wrong. It's the opposite. If you go to a different country where they all love eggs to death, and then you serve them the rotten eggs that only you love, that doesn't mean you made the meal better. It just means you cooked rotten eggs. And for them, that spoils the meal.

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So if a newbie joins a game with long time players (who are just as good as if they cheated) and gets killed once he spawns, does that mean that the long time players automatically should change their gaming style? The newbie can always leave the server and play with other newbies (or people who play) like him, if he wants. Same goes for anticheaters. If you don't enjoy your company you don't have to stay with it.

1, they're not as good as if they cheated. They're as good as if they played the game a long time and got used to the physics built within the game.  And no, they shouldn't change their gaming style, there's no need to, because the newbie isn't at a disadvantage. He has the exact same chance to kill someone that the vets have to kill him.  The only thing that could be seen as a disadvantage is the fact that he isn't totally in tune with the game physics (or maps) yet. In practice, he'll get used to them, and be just as good as the vets, without cheating.

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I disagree. An AI player is no difference the a MP player so if you agree on the fact that you may cheat on an AI player but not on a MP player is not correct. They're both your oponents.

What?? You're telling me there's NO difference between a computer AI and a human being?!  That's like saying there's no difference between apples and oranges.  They're both your opponents, yes. But one is real, one is not.  One (a human) can completely change plans on a whim. He can out-psyche you. He can outsmart you 50x better than any AI can. The other can't. Also from what I understand, and I may be wrong, isn't an AI "outsmarting" you just an illusion? Isn't it basically that the computer reads where your character is, and then tells the AI to react to it [this way.. whatever it is.. i.e. "go here"]? Then when you peak around the corner and the AI comes up behind you your'e like, "Damn! Outsmarted!"? Idk that's just my guess, but that's a whole different story/question and I got off-track, lol. Anyway, If you play against an AI for a long enough period of time, you will eventually know 100% for sure where he's going or coming from or what he'll do when you go where.  With a human player you simply never know for sure. Not to mention a computer AI generally wont comb the entire map looking for you, making sure to take extra caution before going around a corner or something. He wont stop to listen for your footsteps because he's a program. Etc..   Also, the computer AI doesn't have an experience. It's a program. If you cheat against an AI, you're playing a single player game. A game yourself, where everyone but you is uneffected. You can do whatever you want there and it has no effect on anyone else or their experience.  I personally will never cheat my first time through a single player game either, and after that I'd just use codes if I was bored and wanted to screw around for a while.  I know that's your philosophy for online gaming too.. But again, you're playing with people there in a competition. Not a single player game where what you do will have 0 effect on the enemy (a computer AI program).

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You mentioned your car theft in an other post. What if it was stolen, then you have to buy a new car. You see a car you like but it has a round rearmirror. Not buy the car just because the developer put in a round rearmirror witch you don't like? No, just fix the mirror. My personal opinion is the same with gaming.

I see your point, but.. When you enter a show competition with your car, and the rules for the competition are "Must have a round rearmirror", and you come in with your square mirror.. That's a problem, and it's bullshit to the other competitors, since they're competing within the rules set for the competition.  If you want to get together with other square-mirror people and have your own competition with square-mirrors, that's fine.  But if you go and enter in the round-mirror with your square one, that's just lame.    Now to top it all off, your square mirror allows you to hide inside of walls and fly..  You enter a Demolition Derby for round mirrored cars.  Suddenly you're in an arena filled with round mirror cars that can't hide in walls and fly..  And you can hide inside the wall where tehy can't get to you during the derby, then when a car pops out infront of you, you slam on the gas, ram him, and then pop back into the wall where you can't be hurt.

That's lame.

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Well, I could same the same for TK'ing us all the time. But seriously, if your intention (not sure) is to compare us with Nazi soldiers then this discussion is over.

Again, you're looking at the example itself, not the idea behind the example, lol. No I'm not saying you're nazi's, that's just the example that came to mind at the time =P. I can give you a different one if you want.  And no, it wouldn't be the same for TKing you all the time, because, using that same example, the Jew he shot was minding his own buisness before the nazi came and messed his world up for his own agenda.  So if another Jew sees this horrible thing going on, and wants to put an end to it so there'll be peace again.. And he comes up behind the nazi and shoots him in the back of the head and kills him so the problem stops.. Wouldn't you say that's justified?


Anyway, basically anything I didn't respond to was just because they're 2 conflicting points that basically just end with two  "I see your point, but I disagree." 's, which is fine, lol.

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General Modding & Programming / Other Games / Re: Sooo EZ!
« on: September 05, 2006, 07:03:27 pm »


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and waste 3 clips of ammunition on a slowly moving-while-crouching man 3ft away.

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Playing cat-n-mouse is alot of fun...makes them wonder where you are.


No, I mean, this was blatant horrible aiming during an attempt to kill, LoL.  The cat and mouse thing didn't come till about 15 minutes later.

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General Modding & Programming / Other Games / Re: Sooo EZ!
« on: September 05, 2006, 06:47:03 pm »
The FAQ thing I made is here btw

http://tkc-community.net/forum/index.php?topic=4621.0

I honestly don't remember who started the TKing, but it wouldn't surprise me if it was me. I usually shoot cheaters on sight, and feel justified in doing it.  Just as I'd feel justified to punching out someone who tried to steal my car for instance.

But anyway, in reality, no, you weren't respecting my or anyone else's playstyle in the game, even without the TK's. Because your playstyle is a direct disrespect to everyone else's playstyle (fairness). I mean that's just the way it is, lol.

Unless you just meant respected the fact that my playstyle at that very moment was Anti-Cheater. ?

EDIT>  Also, for the record, I have an uncanny ability to put myself in other people's shoes and see other people's point of views.  I see your guys' view, I just severely disagree with it, lol. 

And as I read some of it.. I get this vibe that you guys created this point of view that even you find kinda "iffy" for lack of a better word, but post it up there to give you guys at least some kind of defense, and to show a point of view that might help justify to others what you're doing...   Even though deep down inside you know it's ****ed up too =P.  That's the vibe I get anyway.

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Off Topic / My Arguments/Points About Things In Your FAQ
« on: September 05, 2006, 06:43:16 pm »
I just read through your FAQ, and wanted to get a discussion going about it.  Some of the things I say are counter-points,  other things I say will just be comments, and others have no point other than to show people the way of looking at it from another angle.  The stars are my answers by the way, just to make it easier to seperate the 2 while reading.

Quote from your visitor greating page:
"who once had forgotten that games were not just about competition, but about fun. Players working for an alternative gaming ideology. An ideology based on the foundations of freedom and fun - the purpose of gaming. "

****The purpose of single-player gaming is, freedom and fun.  The purpose of a MULTI-PLAYER game, is to win through even competition. Through even competition comes the fun part you were talking about. You feel an accomplishment when you win, because you know things are even, and you and/or your team, managed to better organize and run more efficiently than the other person/team.  Just like any sport. Multiplayer games are like sports. The only difference is that in an online multi-player game, you are able to play a sort of "sport" in a setting either not available in real life, or not currently possible in real life.

From Your FAQ Section:

Question: Why do we teamkill/cheat/annoy?

Quote from your answer: For most, enjoyment is the primary aim in one form or another

From your TKC Creed secton:

"this method of play can be quite enjoyable and worthwhile for a significant and ever increasing number of players."

****Increasing number of YOUR players, yes. What makes TKing and Cheating more enjoyable and worthwhile to you than beating someone who has an even chance, I'll probably never fully understand.

FROM YOUR GAMING PHILOSOPHY:
"Games, above all else must be fun for the player. ?Player? referencing the individual who is playing the game, not the gaming community as a whole. When a game has lost its entertainment value, there ceases to be a purpose to play. Players have the right to due whatever is necessary to perpetuate or resurrect enjoyment in a game for as long as desired, and this right need not be sacrificed for the enjoyment of fellow players."

***I enjoy killing teamkillers and people who hack the game/cheat to give themselves an unfair advantage so they finally feel powerful, cool, skilled, evil, or whatever the case. So by your own philosophy, everything I did was perfectly fine. By your philosophy, I don't need to "respect your playstyle" like you were saying in my Call Of Juarez thread, as you don't respect mine. I sacrificed your enjoyment of hacking/cheating for my enjoyment of stopping you from cheating and knowing you were probably embarassed in spectator mode.

From your Cheating Philosophy Section:

"As with real life, there are many different types of people present in online gaming, with many different tastes. Some are content with a game as it was intended for play by the developers, while others are not. We do not agree with the notion that if one is not satisfied with a game the way it was developed, that a player should look for another game to play. When a game does not meet one?s expectations, or has lost its former appeal, the use of game modification techniques is encouraged to create a better gameplay experience for the player. This same belief applies to unintended coding vulnerabilities as well."

*** And that's wonderful, if you don't like the way a game is, change it to whatever's fun for you.. In single player. deep down in your heart you know it's messed up to cheat in Multiplayer against other people who are not using your cheats. You can train yourself to mentally block out those feelings while you're commiting the act, just like a mass murderer does everytime he kills a victim, and make it like a temporary guilt band-aid.. But at the end of the day, when all is said and done, you know it's cheap and your "accomplishments" feel probably empty to you I'm sure, or at the very least you must only feel only a very small fraction of what you could feel if you beat someone on an even playing-field.

And if you really were the "good guys" you try to make yourselves out to be, you wouldn't go into public servers and cheat/hack/TK people for your own entertainment. If what you do is soooo righteous, you'd hand out these cheats like candy and MAKE SURE that EVERYONE on the server was using them too, so everyone would be happy playing the new "enjoyable" game you've created through hacks/cheats/etc.


From your player vs. community section:
"an individual player's right to enjoy a game is absolute in our eyes and does not need to be compromised for the enjoyment of others."

*** You said it. And since your "right" to enjoy the game includes pissing all over mine, I have no problem with making sure you can't play the game (the same way you do to me and others with cheats and TK's) too, i.e. pissing all over yours.  In your philosophy, it's alright to ruin someone else's gameplay if it makes yours more enjoyable. Well, that's exactly what I do every time I TK one of you so you can't play. My gaming experience becomes more enjoyable when I know that you're not hacking/cheating/TKing at the moment, and that you feel embarassed sitting in spectator mode.


Quote From Same Section: "One, players do not know personally the people with whom they play with; they are complete strangers meeting online for entertainment."

***Nazi Soldiers didn't know alot of the Jews they drug into the street and shot either. But that doesn't make it right or mean it's ok to do simply because you don't know them.

Another Quote From Same Section: "The belief that one must ?show respect? to their fellow players is not shared in this community. Respect is something that must be earned through time, not automatically given to strangers in an online game."

***So, again, in your own philosophy, I don't need to show you any respect, because you don't show us any respect. Eye for an eye.

From your Motives For Heckling section:
"By introducing additional elements into our games, new possibilities arise and previously unexplored gaming paths open to us. Although other members of the gaming community may choose not to partake in such activities, we at TKC find the forbidden fruit of heckling quite a refreshing and enjoyable change of pace from the repetitive and lackluster gaming rituals of the past."

***It might be "refreshing and enjoyable" for a person to become a pedophile. That's against the norm too, and might make that person's life more enjoyable for him.. So, by your theory, it's alright for someone to become a pedophile and sexually abuse a 6 year old as long as it improves his life, "and this right need not be sacrificed for the enjoyment of fellow [Community Members]".  In the example I obviously changed your word "Players" to "Community Members" to fit the specific example.

Of course you enjoy heckling. You get to kill people without ever running the risk of having to die yourself, or be rivaled by anyone else with the same abilities. You get to cheat, to make yourself more powerful than the people around you not through skill, intimidation, respect, or anything like that.. But because you run a program on your computer.  You can say whatever you want in words, and deny it all you want, and try to justify it any way you want.. But deep down, you know that what you're doing is simply lame, and actually ruins and hurts a game overall more than it would ever help it. The only time it would ever help it, is if every player started using the cheats. Is that your overall goal, to just play every game ever made while cheating, where everyone just cheats all the time so they can "broaden their horizons to the gaming experience"?  I mean dead seriously, that's an honest question, not an anger question.  Is that what you're trying to do, or?

Amusement Section:

*** Ok.. Soo, you want to ruin a game just for attention. Like a little boy jumping up onto the dinner table and dancing infront of company yelling, "Hey! Look at me! Look at me! Hehe! Someone pay attention to me!  I'm funny see! Please like me!... Please?  Come on I'm doing something weird! PAY ATTENTION TO ME!! LIKE ME!!"  ..  You admit that in the "For Attention" section.  And you don't feel stupid doing it? Your choice I guess. At least with getting attention, you're just.. Getting attention, not cheating.

Revenge Section:
"Some gamers incorporate heckling as a means to ?get even? at others"

***But... You're not getting -EVEN- with other players when you do this. You're upset that you were beat on an even playing ground, so instead of taking your loss like a strong human being, you quit throw on a cheat and try to make yourself feel better by killing them, just to say "Ha! I finally did it!".  If that's your way of feeling accomplishment and pride in yourself, then I really, really pity you.  As the revenge section goes on you talk about heckling to get back at hecklers.. But that's simply not a possibility with godmode. No one ever dies.  So what's your take on that situation?  It's ok to cheat until it gets to a point where you even cheat (godmode) while cheating?  Then you finally get what you want though, cheating.. So why not do it?  It is just because then things would finally be even and that's uncomforting to you? or?


Get An Edge Section:
"While we caution that most hecklers are just as skilled as the next player, there are bound to be a few who honestly need the extra edge a cheat provides. Just as Athletes take steroids for an added boost, there are players who think to themselves ?What?s the harm of using just one little cheat?? Perhaps they don?t have the time nor the inclination to put in the necessary hours of practice; or just simply aren?t coordinated with a mouse and keyboard. Wherever their deficiency may lie, they just cannot bring their abilities up to par compared to others. But it is a small minority that fits this description, as most players who are interested in a game to the point where they spend time looking for cheats, are also dedicated enough to be proficient."

*** Yes, athletes use steroids sometimes.. And what do we think of those athletes that cheat by using steroids? We look down on them because instead of striving to make themselves better athletes, they just take the "easy" way out and cheat.  And that shows weak character and bad sportsmanship. If you suck at something, make yourself better, you don't go and cheat. If you're uncoordinated, and the game really means that much to you, then buy some equipment or do other activities offline that help you improve your coordination.  If I like a specific kind of bread, but I don't have the money to buy it at the time.. You're saying it's ok for me to steal it instead of working for the money to buy it? Which means screwing over the person that put in hard work making the bread I just stole?   It's the same principal when you cheat in in an online game. Not only are your kills prideless because you're cheating, but you're also screwing over people who have actually worked hard at the game to get as great as they are.  That's like going to a boxing match you're about to fight in.. Looking at the other fighter and saying, "Wow! You trained alot harder than I did, you're in much better shape!  Well, since I didn't do the work, I'll probably get my ass kicked.. So, I'll just ignore the fact that he trained, and put iron bars in my gloves so I don't have to worry about it. Then I wont have to ever actually have to lose."


ARGUMENTS AGAINST HECKLING SECTION:
"You?re Destroying The Game"
Wrong. We are revitalizing the game, not atomizing it. Would changing the shape or texture of an object necessarily spoil it? We do not believe so. Let?s take a look at what it means to ?destroy? a game.
Destroy: To put an end to; ruin; or kill.
Putting an end to games is the exact opposite of our intentions. Instead we aim to revitalize games through introducing new and distinct game play mechanics. Some players may feel that heckling ?ruins? their enjoyment of the game. However, their individual perception of what creates satisfaction is not contingent to the entire gaming community. And just as sure as a video game is not a living being, it of course cannot be ?killed? either. Players who refuse to adapt to new styles of play may find it intolerable to continue playing under these conditions. This is their prerogative however, and does not subtract from the game as a whole."


*** Changing the shape or texture of an object when everyone else except for you thoroughly enjoys it the way it is, yes, does spoil it.   Just because you enjoy eating rotten eggs personally, so you make and serve rotten eggs at your next party get-together, does not mean that you improved eggs just because "it's something different, and not the norm". It jsut means that you took a fresh egg that 99% of people find delicious, and made it rotten so that you would personally enjoy it.


There Is No Challenge In Cheating
"This argument is based on the presumption that all types of challenges require strict adherence to the rules, and therefore does not cover the term ?challenge? in the boarder sense. Since our detractors can only focus on this sole aspect of challenge, we will ignore the many types of challenges that are excluded. When speaking of challenge in terms of standard measures (i.e., mission objectives), yes it is true that cheats normally reduce a game's challenge. The degree to which the challenge is reduced depends on the extent of modification the cheat performs."

***I get your point, but it's an extremely weak one considering that the CHALLENGE is accomplishing a goal and/or winning -WHILE FOLLOWING THE RULES DESIGNED TO MAKE THE GAME CHALLENGING- ...  That's what a challenge is.  If you "go outside the box" by making/saying your challenge is to see how long you can live while using a speed hack.. Then, well, you're not playing the same game that the other people are.  You're playing Chutes And Ladders, and pretending that being good at Chutes And Ladders means you're a good Candy Land player. And then you believe that in your own head so much that it starts to become a reality to you. You say, "I win Candy Land! I'm awesome and this is fun!"   ...  When in reality, they're 2 completely unrelated things and it's kinda pathetic.  So in effect, no, the game everyone else is playing, (the one you're hacking/cheating in), is not challenging to you anymore. There is no challenge there. So to put it in other words, no, there is no challenge in cheating. The only challenge, is seeing if you can write a program that works in a game.  ((That's what I was referring to when I said Chutes And Ladders.. Candy Land would obviously be the actual game being played.))

You Are Ruining Other People's Fun
"Or is it you who is allowing your fun to be ruined? How another player chooses to go about enjoying his or her copy of a game shouldn?t matter to someone who is a down to earth individual. In terms of cheats, if someone happens to be using an aimbot or wallhack so what? Continue playing the way you usually do, it isn?t as if your player?s character has been crippled in anyway so it should be immaterial to you. Many times players quit having fun in sight of hecklers because they cherish outdated gameplay to that of a holy grail. They don?t need to realize that there are other ways to derive pleasure from gaming than having the highest kill ratio.
Granted, there are exceptions, as heckling also evokes team killing, harassment, and general non-sense. As expected, such acts will cause some players to become irate. Admittedly we have a very egocentric view of online gaming, and this is where our ideologies with others clash. Our detractors insist that there is an unwritten and unified code of ethics to be followed amongst gamers; we do not share this belief. To us, the primary function of a game is enjoyment for the individual player, not to the gaming community as a whole."

*** No, it's you ruining other people's fun. Those people CAN'T enjoy their copy of the game when they are unable to PLAY it because someone else cheated to kill them.  You CAN'T play the way you usually do, because the cheater uses non-game-mechanic methoods to ensure this. And yes, your player is crippled in a hypothetical sense since 100% completely unavoidable outside forces strike him at random times, and there is nothing he can do about it.  That's like saying someone who has Aids needs to stop crying and just live their life, because if they were down to earth people, it shouldn't matter to them that viruses are destroying their white blood cells.
Anyway, at the end of this section you admit you're deuches (for lack of a better word), who ruin other people's fun for your own enjoyment.. Sooo, at the end, you basically agree with the original statement you were trying to defend yourself against. Well, at least you're consciously aware of it and that makes me happy.


Cheaters Have No Skill
A common misconception, brought about from animosity and frustration of our detractors. There are few requirements to become proficient at video games. Eyesight, working hands & fingers, and practice?that?s it. Physical fitness is hardly a prerequisite, and it is unlikely that there is such a thing as natural talent when it comes to gaming. Basically anyone who plays a game long enough will become skilled over time, some take longer than others, but nearly everyone gets the hang of it after a while. Just because someone chooses a different approach to gaming does not mean that their skills are sub par. Although there are some cheaters who honestly aren?t very good at online games, most have no trouble performing well under the same standard methods of play as others. In general the skill of cheaters vs. standard players is comparable with little to no disparity.

***Well, you said it yourself. To be good at something, you have to practice.  That's true anywhere in life. Why do you feel it's your "right" to cheat simply because you put less time into improving your skills as the other guy did?  So, when you're playing the same game as everyone else, and you're not as good as them or you want an advantage, you cheat instead of practicing.  That requires no skill, in the LITERAL sense even. You don't improve your skill, you just cheat. That means there is no personal skill at the game itself involved. The only skill involved is how well you can write programs/hacks/cheats.  That's a totally different thing than the game being played. So in effect, no, cheaters don't have skill at the game.


Taking Advantage Of Exploits Is Wrong
Says who, the developers? But isn?t it their responsibility to ensure that bugs do not seep into the game?s final release? Since they are the ones being paid at our expense, we believe it is. Our response to whether it is reasonable to expect a player not to take advantage of a gaming exploit, well that?s like laying a stack of 50?s in front of a total stranger, leaving the room and expecting none to be missing when you return

***Thank you, you gave me the perfect analogy in your own writing.  Just because you lay a stack of 50's infront of a stranger, doesn't mean it's right for him to take it. It's still wrong. Just because you know it's very likely that he will take it, doesn't make it right when he does.


Discuss.   :P

12
General Modding & Programming / Other Games / Re: Sooo EZ!
« on: September 05, 2006, 06:08:48 pm »
But.. You're the one that logged on with 4 people  :lol:

And why should I "accept" your style of play, when your style of play pisses all over mine? Obviously you don't accept mine. The very basis of that is, well, unacceptable.  And when something is unacceptable, you change it so it is acceptable.

In this situation, making an unacceptable thing acceptable.. Is killing the people that make playing your way, unacceptable.

"Death solves all problems. No man, no problem."  - Joseph Stalin

Anyway, I read your guys' FAQ and everything and have some things to add to keep the argument fair.  Unfortunately I assume this will probably upset you all greatly, since you guys seem to scoff at the idea of being fair. Some of the things I say there will have a point, others will have no point other than to provide a counter-argument for people to look at and make their own decision on which angle they'd like to take on a situation.

I'll post it in Off-Topic.

13
General Modding & Programming / Other Games / Re: Sooo EZ!
« on: September 05, 2006, 03:43:12 am »
Agreed.

14
General Modding & Programming / Other Games / Re: Sooo EZ!
« on: September 05, 2006, 03:41:04 am »
Yeah, that's kinda what it looked like.  Except it was a bullet and not a stick.

15
General Modding & Programming / Other Games / Sooo EZ!
« on: September 05, 2006, 03:36:37 am »
Just wanted to say GG on getting absolutely obliterated, stone-cold-owned by regular players while hacking.  Just when I thought your aim and skill couldn't get any worse, the playercam allowed me to delve deep into the mind of a pure cheat-code newbie.

Never before have I witnessed first-hand the ability to hide into a wall, and waste 3 clips of ammunition on a slowly moving-while-crouching man 3ft away. The aim was just attrocious, I found myself speaking loudly at the screen. Things like, "Are you serious?! He didn't hit him?! Holllly fuck are they horrible!" followed by a look of amazement.

We made you quit 2 servers and have to turn godmode on so you wouldn't be so utterly embarassed, LMAO!!! I was like a giddy schoolgirl squeeling with delight as I plucked you all 1-by-1 every round and got the massive ego-boost of killing a hacker (while not hacking) and knowing that his heart sunk just a little bit.. And he probably got that pursed lip look.. You know, the face you make when you're like, "Gay. I hack and he still kills me, that's kind of embarassing. Guess I'll have to try next round.".. Yeah, that one.  And the best was watching you guys try to split up and switch teams at the end so you woudln't all die at once and at least had a chance..  Followed by you all getting completely owned and quitting the server all-together. Ahh, that was the best!

Nothing boosts the ego more like dropping a hacker!  Anytime you wanna watch a 20 minute western film from a skycam again, just let me know. I'll be glad to put a bullet in your head! =D

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