TKC-Community

General Public Section => Off Topic => Topic started by: phatzoid on February 02, 2005, 12:49:02 am

Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: phatzoid on February 02, 2005, 12:49:02 am
Looking at the guys here who know their stuff, and are working hard to make sneaky exploits for games, I have to ask...

How much would it cost to turn this on its head? I mean what would TKC expect in terms of finance to instead of developing cheats to develop anti-cheats?

I know that seems to run against the grain here, considering this site is about cheating, but its clear to me that some people here have got the smarts to make a better protection system than the guys who are providing it now...

I mean if someone was going to employ you to do the reverse how much would it cost? ?10, ?100, ?1000, ?10000 or more? Maybe some of you guys could earn a living from your skills... which has to be more rewarding than just getting one over on the developers?
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: M. O. on February 02, 2005, 01:20:43 am
Well, this is just our hobby. It's hard to put a price on it.
It's also two different tasks to create cheats and battle them. If you want to battle cheats then you have to be the developer yourself. It's a different feeling to create cheats. You've got freedom to do "anything" you want.

It's a choice between security and performance.

TKC is going to take a great step forward from creating cheats to developing games this and next year.
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: phatzoid on February 02, 2005, 01:50:06 pm
Well im glad to hear that :D

As a programmer and developer myself I have been fasinated by these types of communities. Historically many of the best programmers, working for the likes of Microsoft and Symantec, have come from a similiar background. Those programmers that have demonstrated exploits, backdoors and other holes in software have often been head-hunted by the makers of the very software they exploit.

When we look at the games industry, specifically that of exploit creation, I am amazed that they do not seem to follow this ethos. Considering that many of these companies have pretty deep pockets and yet they do not put a financial reward on the work you guys do. Afterall if you can exploit the software, then I am sure you can plug up those holes just as well.

I agree that people should have the freedom to choose how they want to play, cheating or otherwise, but that is not really my interest. It's clear that here you have some very talented individuals and it would be interesting to see how you guys would do things should the roles be reveresed. :?:

Looking at the likes of Hradba it seems to me that it falls short of being an effective prevention system, with so few updates compared to some other systems. Again most prevention systems such as hradba work after the event, someone developes an exploit, and then it gets fixed. Yet if people like yourselves where doing this I think it would be a pro-active approach instead of retro-active.

I hope you guys DO make a title and show some of these developers what can be done. I also wonder if developing an anti-cheat based on what you have learned, would be financially rewarding.

I wish you guys the best of luck with your future projects and I will of course be watching this space with great interest. :wink:
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: [TKC]thejoker on February 02, 2005, 06:22:40 pm
?1000 a month would do me for making anti-cheat programs  8)
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: phatzoid on February 02, 2005, 06:29:28 pm
Well that seems pretty low. Considering most guys who do this for a living are on much bigger salaries.

The real question was aimed at the group as a whole. I mean to turn the top programmers, (the heart of TKC) into a proper company with targets and budgets and so forth.

Not that im offering to pay you guys :lol:, but simply to look at the feasability of such a move. :?:

More to the point, is this even something TKC would do. I appreciate the ethos here is towards freedom, and supporting those that agree with that philosphy, but clearly there are some bright peeps here who could probably do this for a living.

Additionally its worth mentioning that in this scenario TKC would become a anti-cheat group instead. So we are talking about the entire team. I would think that a reasonable annual figure would be somewhere in the region of $60k a year, employing 4-8 people full time....
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: ZOldDude on February 02, 2005, 10:37:03 pm
UK pepole are so into "fair" play........

Anyhow 60K per year is a bullsh!t LOW number....and after they do the job they get fired.

That would leave the company with a product that it could gain income from untill hell froze over....on a per copy rate.....reaching 100's of millions each decade.



(http://img105.exs.cx/img105/8273/rearviewmirror4fh.jpg)
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: phatzoid on February 02, 2005, 10:43:21 pm
First of all it would be a pretty lame anti-cheat if after it was made the progammers all got fired. The point of an anti-cheat company is much like a cheat community, in that they continue to release new updates, so I don't think you would make a lot of doe that way.

As for the ?60k figure, I just pulled that out of the air, and if you check the early posts, I am asking how much? Annual budget would the team aim for to continue to support and develop an anti-cheat system.

This is of course Hyperthetical :wink:
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: ZOldDude on February 02, 2005, 11:06:33 pm
Well if a company was to make an honest offer I would bring it up with the rest of the staff.

I have a firm idea on which members have good programming skills and/or already work in the industry at some lvl.

The big issue (for honest offer) is that people are in differant countrys and contract laws differ.
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: phatzoid on February 02, 2005, 11:09:56 pm
Yeah a fiar comment, very difficult to organise a pay structure that works globally. Like I say I am simply curious as IMHO some of the current providers of anti-cheat systems leave a lot to be desired.

Thanks for the frank answers.
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: ZOldDude on February 02, 2005, 11:33:01 pm
Well as far as HradBa....there are still walhacks for #206 and also two ways to turn it off yet still make the server think it is engaged.

As for the stand alone wallhack I am just waiting for the programmer to give his permission to make it public along with the perm-ban fix.
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: M. O. on February 03, 2005, 12:01:59 am
It's a very good idea phatzoid, there indeed is a future in anti-cheat business. We'll see what we do with the new game anti-cheatwise, but the best way to combat cheats is to make it a part of the game ;)

Anyway it's too early to decide now, we'll see what happens.
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: phatzoid on February 03, 2005, 04:06:32 pm
Well the best of luck with it guys...

I will check back from time to time to see how you guys are getting along. Very interesting & nice talking to you all :D
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: ZOldDude on February 03, 2005, 09:39:20 pm
You said you were a "programmer and developer".....what company?
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: phatzoid on February 03, 2005, 10:15:08 pm
Well I run a small games development house in UK, not so exciting as we develop arcade games for young children, usually under the age of 5. We use a third part engine that we have licensed and continue to develop.

My background in programming, C & C++ right through to net based stuff like PHP, (although that is more of a hobby)

FYI: Our engine has DX9 support, including the full set of pixel shaders and stencil shadowing, much like Doom3, however we don't use it for anything so exciting. (Not yet anyway :lol: )

This is really what enspired my questions, bcz should at some stage my company decide to move into the commercial 3D games market, we would need to provide Anti-Cheat, and to license something like Punk-Buster is out of our reach.

Im sure you will understand why I don't post my companies URL and name here as its too public. Feel free to PM me...
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: ZOldDude on February 04, 2005, 06:59:09 am
Well you can advert your company here anytime you want.....we write the TOS as we see fit.

I have never had to buy a lic. for any AC program ....but thought it was based on so many cents (or fraction of) per copy and should be less than what the game devs get per copy.

Punk Buster is way easyer to cheat than HradBa as they attact the same problem but in differant ways.

In the end run any AC could just be dissabled and a script used to intercept the call from server and give fake report back from client.

After all people still manage to bring about hell on government websites and even have lame contests to see who can do the most each week.

The only thing foolproff is......nothing.

Also except for HradBa all the other AC programs from United Admin are free.

The best AC would be tight programing of a game BEFOR release.....close the holes.

One guy in Italy who wrote part of the Windows XP code (probibly the part that was not buggy) trys to find "a problem with a program every day" just to keep his mind sharp.
His site lists untold issues and proof of concept programs that crash or allow "fake playes" to enter almost every game played on the internet or enter passworded game servers and/or allow a person to make himself an addmin.

GameSpy servers still have bugs that allow people to remove servers from the list years after the first report of the flaw!
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: phatzoid on February 04, 2005, 09:13:28 pm
Well our engine lisence cost just under $10k which gives us the ability to develop new titles with it which have to be registered with our engine provider for their records.

There are other costs dependant on the target market, which for Arcade only titles is considerably less compared to the PC game market, (one of the reasons we have not moved into this market yet).

Im not particularly interested in current cheats for current games per say, but I am interested in the whole process. I can not agree with you more, regarding finding the holes before shipping a title, instead of expecting an AC to plug them all up, which is more forgivable for small firms like pterodon, but when companies like EA fail to do this I am frankly appalled. As well as the fact that huge organisations, like government bodies, are as open to these exploits as the games industry, although this poses more of a problem than some guy running around in your game with some super ability.

To aquire AC's as you say, may well be free, certainly to the public but in most cases some level of funding must come from the developers, outsourcing this to an established firm would seem the direction that most take...

As I mention my own programming experience is pretty wide, but when it comes to this side, exploiting flaws, I must say I have limited knowledge outside of the average persons understanding. However should we find ourselves in a position where this is a factor we need to understand I suspect we would follow the common path of outsourcing to someone who does. Obviously establishing a good level of communication between the parties would be our first priority, to look at what should be tied up before handing a project over to the AC contractor. I suspect this is the first place many developers stubble over and failing here can result to more exploitable 'holes', thus creating more exploits.

I think other community related problems arrise when developers are tight lipped about these flaws which breeds discord within the titles developing community, legit players or exploit players. Both communities are as valid as each other and IMHO a more open approach to both would improve them no-end.

I don't pretend to share the ethos of the exploit community but that is not to say that I don't understand it. This kind of grey area can get a little murky with some players sitting on the fence... but all the same these communities are what keep your title in circlation... anyway I digress... :roll:  :?

Maybe if developers actually worked along side communities like TKC they could learn from each other, and in turn create an environment where players from either camp can decide where they want to play, how they want to play etc...

There are some games as you know that run international leagues, plagued with reports of cheating or other types of exploit. Yet if a better relationship with the exploit community had been developed, places like TKC could have helped provide a exploit free environment, or at least a closer to legit one. I remember years ago playing Diablo, from Blizzard, and I remember that their own server list had 2 zones, one for exploiters and one for legit (although not perfect if I recall), but at least they were working towards this goal. Yet the current consensus from developers seems to be one of denial, or at least to turn a blind eye until some new AC update can be released.... These are just conclusions based on ovservations I have made over the last 8 years as a small time games developer, and a long time as a game player. :D
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: ZOldDude on February 04, 2005, 10:01:26 pm
Well as far as VC goes it has been said that TKC was the LARGEST and BEST beta tester for this game.....it found all the bugs!

We just never made them all public.

Some things are just not "fun" for people or would just kill the game outright.

I still am called "The Unknown Player" by some of the company boys even tho that was in fact my buddy from NZ Rob H......he's living just down the road from me and works 12-14 hours a day playing video games and trying his best to crash them.
He gets paid to do this.
Right now he is on project for Sony.

With consol games they have to be correct when they goto market....forget a "patch".

By the way I started a program here that works with NATO to review game demos from ladder contests for cheats.....no TKC software ever changes hands.
All the "he/they cheat" yells in North American came to a total halt out of fear of being busted. The simple fact that TKC would act as an outside reviewer was all that was needed (I never had to even look at a demo!).

This did alot to change the "evil image" of TKC at least in the largest possible sales market in the world....yet those in other countrys still have major issue with TKC and/or my posting name.
Oh well....thats why I test all the new stuff in the Pterodon public server LOL!


I am going to move this tread to a more proper area of the forums as it really has nothing to do with this section......
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: [TKC]thejoker on February 05, 2005, 08:55:44 pm
If everything was made server side and the packets were seriously encrypted there wouldnt be alot of cheaters in games.
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: phatzoid on February 05, 2005, 08:58:19 pm
That would be my thinking also. I guess the trick is to make the encrytion and decryption mothod fast enough that it would not effect server response times etc...
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: [TKC]thejoker on February 05, 2005, 09:01:20 pm
Yea, it will take cheaters a while to decrypt the pakets, find which one they want, figure out what to change it to, encrypt it again to see if it works, put it into a trainer and release it to public. By that time you have already released a new patch so they need to do it all over again which will annoy them so they will give up.
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: phatzoid on February 05, 2005, 09:04:59 pm
especially if the encrytion key could be updated, if this was done weekly, a simple enough automation, this would make creation of exploits a pointless task. Something that I have never understood is why has this not been implemented? My only guess is the response time...
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: [TKC]thejoker on February 05, 2005, 09:06:33 pm
Probably is because of response times, since not everywere can get internet speeds as fast as Sweden or Japan. But as the whole world gets really fast speeds for cheaper then this should be implemented (if it isnt some game developers need slapped)
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: phatzoid on February 05, 2005, 09:10:54 pm
Obviously holes in external things, such as DirectX, can still lead to exploits but considering these games usually have a screen shot function, I am surprised that a simple random screen capture system is not implemented. I mean if a server was gathering random screen shots from all players this would create a reasonable deterent against those D3D holes... ok that still leaves a gap for non-visiual aids like aimbots and speed hacks etc, but its such a simple step....

When you start looking at this from the other end of the spectrum its easy to see that blocking every hole is almost impossible, but there are things that could be done...often very simple....IMHO
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: ZOldDude on February 06, 2005, 12:03:59 am
Crypting things stops nothing.
If the GAME can understand what is "said" then the what makes you think cyrpting is really worth the bother?
The answere is just sitting right there in the games folders or a a reg entry for anyone to look at.

SS can and have been scripted to filter as needed also.

Words of wisdom: "A lock will only keep an honest person out."
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: TheHeckler! on February 06, 2005, 06:50:34 am
Quote from: [TKC]thejoker
If everything was made server side and the packets were seriously encrypted there wouldnt be alot of cheaters in games.


This is blizzards answer to expliots and such in their games...so far it has proven quite effective, albeit not foolproof
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: [TKC]thejoker on February 09, 2005, 12:40:30 am
Quote from: TheHeckler!
Quote from: [TKC]thejoker
If everything was made server side and the packets were seriously encrypted there wouldnt be alot of cheaters in games.


This is blizzards answer to expliots and such in their games...so far it has proven quite effective, albeit not foolproof


They are the guys who do diablo 2 correct? All MMORPG's are like this and there exists no trainers for any, shows it does work, all there are in mmorpgs are bugs which get fixed easy enough.
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: phatzoid on February 09, 2005, 12:48:18 am
There is obviously somthing to be learned here.

The obvious question is why are FPS makers not taking the same route? Is this because for some reason its harder to implement? I presume that MMORPG's are not sharing packets as often as FPS, bcz there is less need to be synchronised with these types of games, maybe there is more room for the encryted packets.

As mentioned above it is always better to tie up these holes before final publication, but its certainly an interesting point.

Other things like CD-Key ban deterents, like I hear HL2 uses, (although thats speculation at the moment, having not played it myself). However these CD-Keys seem pretty easy to aquire so loosing your CD-Key bcz of being an exploiter may not be much of a deterent...
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: M. O. on February 09, 2005, 01:06:11 am
If you download HL2 off the net, you don't even need a key ;)
You only have to create a new user if you've been banned.
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: [TKC]thejoker on February 09, 2005, 01:06:53 am
MMORPGs have ALOT more interacting to do than a FPS. Tens of thousands of people on the server a day leveling up and gathering and dropping items will require more pakets than a few hundered people a day on a server shooting and reloading and swapping guns. It is actually very weird that they dont do this yet. CD-keys are stupid IMO, what they need to verify is something on the game cd that cant in anyway be seen by anyone or copied or whatever, then when starting up the game it checks the CD for this file and if it isnt there, they simply arent able to play the game. As for banning using CD-keys, if they use the paket encryption bla bla bla then they shouldn't need to ban anyone for cheating.
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: ZOldDude on February 09, 2005, 07:42:01 am
Quote from: phatzoid

Other things like CD-Key ban deterents, like I hear HL2 uses, (although thats speculation at the moment, having not played it myself). However these CD-Keys seem pretty easy to aquire so loosing your CD-Key bcz of being an exploiter may not be much of a deterent...


Global Bans of this sort have many truly "evil" uses of the obvious explots.
One former high up in United Admim left after being craped upon for pointing out what MIGHT happen if a person set up a server (or was an Admin) was to collect IP's and then report a cheating ban after SMURFING the ID.

VAC....STEAM.....they piss you off just f*ck all thier online keys for life,in ALL of the companys games.

The whole idea is the wrong way to go and the "gota have an ID in VC2" idea has talked about on Peterodon .....yet I doubt that the truly brain dead understand the danger of such a system and will countinue  to fully suport and even push it.

In a matter of hours EVERY online key could be wiped from ever playing online ever again under some theory.

Everything has a balance.
The trick is to find the sweat spot withen function/price/useablity.


(this site needs a spell cheacker.....I am so old I forget)
Title: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: GameBro on February 09, 2005, 11:53:34 am
thats why I have 4 Accounts on 2 Machines witch 4 individual Steam-Numbers. No ban for me. And for VC, I was baned 15 Times now, I allways use same name and Game, cause they ban the ID.

Best Anticheat ever is CD = Cheating Death, for CS 1.6 but there are still Programs that run in the Background and still can be used.
Enemy-Detector for older Game-Engines like CS is are the perfect hack, and undetected since 3 Years.

There is no Anticheat the really can stop Cheats, just better skill :)
Title: Re: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: mReURO on November 18, 2015, 06:45:07 am
see that some bots are scanning that topic :P @taleworlds. there is for sure always a price :P
Title: Re: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: MrCamo on November 18, 2015, 08:04:13 pm
I made some games in game maker.
Title: Re: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: MrMedic on November 19, 2015, 12:37:37 am
see that some bots are scanning that topic :P @taleworlds. there is for sure always a price :P

they probably want to buy my hack.
Title: Re: How much would it cost to turn TKC into an anti-cheat group?
Post by: MrCamo on March 29, 2016, 08:17:40 pm
Until I throw a huge bankroll on donation.